Gush Katif Deportations “Far from a Done Deal”
MS Messenger Interview with settler Joseph K.
 Joseph K. with friend at Madam Tuso's Wax Museum |
Joseph K (also known for years to USAJewish readers as "Ploni Almoni," is a New Jersey boy who settled in Israel in his twenties, married the daughter of Isramericans and with his wife is raising their large family in a large home in Karney Shomron, a remote suburb of Tel Aviv which is now closer on most maps to Ramallah than to Dizingof, on account of the green line and the security fence.
Joseph is a computer expert working for a major Israeli conglomerate. His professional peers, whom he meets frequently when traveling around the globe to manage various projects, are leading a life of comfort and luxury, from Jakarta to Los Angeles. Living in the Disputed Territories means that Joseph and his family are enduring many daily headaches and frustrations (some of which they share with their Palestinian neighbors): Roadblocks, roadside sharpshooters, and unreliable supply lines which make amenities like washer-dryer repairs and cooking gas deliveries a rare thing.
Yori Yanover: What brought you to Israel?
Joseph K: I wanted a real thing. I was always interested in Israel as a kid growing up in NJ, and even though I went to Jewish schools that were not overly "Zionist" I decided to attend an ulpan course in the Eighth grade, to the chagrin of my rabbis.
“I guess the big change happened when I was in Israel learning at Yeshiva Kerem B'Yavneh. I'm not sure what it was specifically, but I felt very much at home everywhere I went in Israel. Hitchhiking to Jerusalem, visiting villages, schools, kibbutzim, cities...Wherever I went, I felt very much at home - a sense of belonging.”
Yori Yanover: How old were you at Kerem B'Yavne?
Joseph K: 17 – 19. I was there for 2 years, 1985-1987.
Yori Yanover: How many of your classmates back in New Jersey went on the same program?
Joseph K: There were 70 other guys at KBY with me, who were mostly classmates from Yeshiva College. However, I had friends at all the Yeshivot and seminaries around Israel. The above classmates were chutznikim (outsiders), as opposed to Israelis on the Hesder program (where Israeli students combine yeshiva study and army service).
“All together, there were about 500 students studying in Israel those years at different yeshivot and seminaries. I knew a lot of them from my freshman year at Yeshiva College.
“At the end of my first year at KBY, I remember going around asking my friends if they were going to move back to Israel. I would say that nine out of ten said yes, definitely. While we all started out with different ideas about Israel, everyone came to love the country. And we were definitely not all kippot srugot (knitted yarmulkes, marking the national-religious faction). I had lots of friends at varied places around Israel - the blacker yeshivot, kibbutz programs through Bnei Akiva, American style Yeshivot like BMT, and the more "Israeli" ones like Shilo and Har Etzion.
“It was an eye opening experience for all of us. Unfortunately, of all the people who said "We're definitely moving to Israel," only a very small minority has actually made it here. Many ended up in Teaneck, Passaic, Long Beach... but hardly any here.”
Yori Yanover: Have any of them shared with you why the change of hearts?
Joseph K: The change of heart happened back in the US, after being away from Israel for a year or two. The disconnect from Israel was enhanced by the more "realistic" lifestyle of modern orthodox Jews in America. While many of my friends wanted to come back, over time, the urge to move faded into pleasant memories of “my year in Israel," and were superceded by the reality of professions, dating, marriage, family life, etc.
“I didn't want to return to the US at all. I wanted to stay, serve in the IDF for a year, and then study at Bar Ilan University. Those friends of mine who did make it back were all very ideological (we even made a joke blood pact that we would all move back to Israel after college or we would kill those who didn't).
“We did everything we could to retain the spirit of what we had found in Israel and were a very close group of friends. We were all active in Yavneh Olami (the religious Zionist students organization) and Bnei Akiva. A small core of friends from there moved right after college and we have all keep in touch.
Yori Yanover: Do you see a similarity between your friends dropping out of their commitment to your future plans and many Israelis who are "dropping out" of their commitment to fellow Jews in the territories?
Joseph K: Its difficult to compare. My friends who dropped out from making their aliya materialize were going above and beyond what was expected of them in the first place. Orthodox American Jewry does not expect or mandate moving to Israel; it’s filed under a "nice to have" mitzvah, you get extra brownie points for it. Therefore, my disappointment with them is minimal compared to Israelis who "drop out" of their commitment to fellow Jews here. In Israel, we all serve in the army together, work together, and are part of the same collective Jewish experience. For Israelis to drop out of supporting their brothers is much more disappointing... and depressing.
Yori Yanover: When I interviewed Lubavitchers when the Rebbe was dying, I used to press them to tell me, So what will happen if he will die; and they usually refused to deal with it. Are you facing the deportations from Gush Katif in the Gaza Strip as done deal?
Joseph K: It is far from being a done deal. Just last week the incoming IDF chief of staff, Dan Chalutz visited Gush Katif and was asked, "How will the IDF expell the Jews of Gush Katif if 100,000 Israelies show up to prevent it?" His reply was that he would go back to the Israeli government and say that the IDF is incapable of the mission imposed on it by the government.
“We all have realistic fears that the worst will happen, yet we continue on with faith that this terrible decree will still be abolished. How do you think the Jews in the Megillah story felt after being told that Haman was going to kill them all? Was that a ‘done deal?’
“We will organize and do what we can within the framework of acceptable Western and Jewish standards of civil disobedience to try and stop the deportations, and we have lots of emunah, faith, that we are capable of preventing it.
“Having said all that, I don't think anyone believes that there’s not even a slim chance that it could happen. We just are hoping and praying that it doesn’t.”
Yori Yanover: Are there really plans to bus in 100,000 Jews for the deportation? I'm reading about fortifications of the Gaza area to keep Jews out.
Joseph K: “There are many plans to get 100,000 Jews into Gush Katif. While I don't agree with all of them, there is a lot of creative thought going into this exact question.
Yori Yanover: You chose to settle outside greenline Israel because of economics, faith, both?
Joseph K: 98% faith 2% economics.
Yori Yanover: You work in Jerusalem and travel several hours each day to and from. You stand in as many checkpoints as most Palestinians. Are you getting a reasonable return on your investment?
Joseph K: I have it very easy. The families who moved to Israel 80 years ago had to drain swamps, fight malaria, and watched their children fight horrible disease. There was no army, they were easy targets, and had a terrible standard of living. My standard of living is a many times better. Yes, I drive through many checkpoints to work, but its my land that I travel on every day. I travel the same paths that our forefathers did. Last night was the yahrtzeit of Yehoshua bin Noon (Biblical Joshua). He's buried 10 minutes way from my house... I live in the land that was part of the tribe of Ephraim... and I get to live my life on the pulse of emerging Jewish history, and not as a bystander.
“On a more mundane note - my kids can walk home from nursery school by themselves, play all night long outside without me worrying how they will get home.
Yori Yanover: You're not really answering my question. Your time is valued at many dollars an hour. You pay through the nose in lost time, in loss of services, in distance from commercial centers, in quality of education for you children. You made an investment – the extra $100,000 a year someone in your position in LA spends on amenities, you spend on living in Karnay Shomron. Safety for kids can be perceived
as an illusion when the village where they're walking so fearlessly has seen so many attacks, some of which were fatal. Come on, man, what are you getting in return for the hardship?
Joseph K: Hardship? Life is a challenge. Judaism is a challenge. Davening 3 times a day is a challenge. Keeping kosher and observing Shabbat is a challenge. Is it a hardship to keep 613 Torah commandments, when you could have the easy life and get away with a lot less? I think my kids have a much better life then I did, growing up in Teaneck, NJ.
Yori Yanover: They tell you so?
Joseph K: When the shooting attacks started in the Gilo neighborhood of Jerusalem, my kids wanted us to go there for Shabbat to help strengthen the families living there. After all, we were shot at over here all the time, and they were getting it very sporadically...
“Over Pesach we went to Chevron, Gush Katif, Chomesh (northern Shomron)—instead of going to the circus. My kids had a blast and asked when we're going back to Gush Katif. We have had discussions about passive civil disobedience, what is right and wrong to do in opposing the expulsion... including when is it OK to go to jail.
“For example, I went to jail for demonstrating in front of the Russian Consulate in NYC on behalf of Soviet Jewry in the 1980's. Was that a bad thing? Did that lower my quality of life?
“I got arrested for Natan Sharansky... and whenever I called up his office to lobby on behalf of Gush Katif, I always mentioned that fact. And he did the right thing this week, and resigned from Sharon's government in protest over the expulsion…
“Regarding quality of life - one could say that religious education impacts quality of life. Less time to play, watch TV...”
Yori Yanover: I don't want this to degenerate into defense of the settler movement. I'm looking to get a sense of the reaction to the coming political onslaught on the Gaza settlers. I know you can't bail out, but I've been reading about alternatives like the dunes of Chalutza being bandied about and the Gush Katif folks appear receptive. Were the media lying?
Joseph K: There are two different, yet parallel paths being taken now by the Jews of Gush Katif. The settlers themselves are on the path of doing all they can to stop the expulsion. A different group, not made up of settlers at all, but by people who are self-declared sympathizers of Gush Katif, working on the assumption that if the expulsion does happen, they will ensure to get the best possible deal.
“For the settlers. These are two completely separate groups—yet they are both on the same side of the ideological map. I even read today of Shabak (GSS) agents who are appearing in Gush Katif to push for the "pragmatic" approach.
Yori Yanover: That was to be expected.
Joseph K: True - but the two groups are independent of each other. The vast majority of the settlers will fight till the end. However, they do know that there are good people looking out for them (the other group) as opposed to the Israeli government and the Expulsion Authority (lead by Yonatan Bassi)
“Sharon clearly expected the majority of Gush Katif settlers to have already "accepted their fate" of the inevitability of the expulsion and take whatever reparations were being offered. The expectations of Sharon do not match reality on the ground.
“The 1979 Yamit settlers in the northern Sinai gave up very early in the game, and Gush Katif has surprised almost everyone.
“My friends in Gush Katif deal with expulsion-related issues every day: If something breaks in their house, they agonize over the cost to fix it, and honestly wonder about each cent they "invest" in their house.
“Here's something you didn't know: When we were in Gush Katif last week, the army was still re-enforcing all the roofs of the settler houses. Each roof costs close to $20,000. While I tip my hat to the IDF for continuing this work, I wonder if the IDF really believes the expulsion will really take place.
“When youre in Gush katif, its too real a feeling that the place will not be destroyed.
Yori Yanover: They've done things like that before, invest just before pulling out.
Joseph K: I bet you the Labor ministers in the government have no clue.. And if they did, they would be screaming to stop it. The army has not done anything like this before....they don't have the budget.
Yori Yanover: Some in Labor are to the right of Sharon.
Joseph K: Yes, but none of the current Labor cabinet ministers. They are all comfortably to the left of him. Just look at their outbursts over the government decision to change the status of the College of Judea and Samaria to a fully accredited University.
Yori Yanover: Tell me more about Gush Katif’s plans to survive the deportation.
Joseph K: My friends there said the following, and they are extremely pious people, which I do not say in jest: We are doing what we are supposed to do. Love the land, settle the land, and teach our children to do the same. If our generation is so stupid to throw away the opportunity, then our children, or their children will eventually get the land back. It was promised to us, and G-d doesn't lie.
“I have heard people say that G-d doesn't provide miracles for the heck of it. Over 5500 rocket have been fired at Gush Katif. My friend's house is surrounded by pockmarked asphalt where the rockets have landed. My friend survived a full frontal terrorist attack of a terrorist firing over 120 bullets at his car. He was only wounded by broken glass - not one bullet touched him. They sincerely believe that G-d hasn’t allowed them to survive only to be thrown out of their houses by Sharon. There must be a more important mission for them.
“Yet, with all that, I can see the soldiers coming to their house, as the family sits around their dining room table, singing songs of praise to Hashem for providing them with a wonderful home and family, and the soldiers are dragging them... five kids... and the parents our of their home.
“I can even see their youngest son kissing the mezuza on the front door of their house for the last time as he's carried out. Even with all of that - they will survive the destruction (which we hope never comes), since they are very strong-willed. They have survived terrorist attacks and poverty. It will be hard, but they will build another home. I don't know which of their generations will return, their children or grandchildren, but their descendants will definitely return."